Wednesday, August 6, 2014

DC's Greatest Failure: How A Bad Marketing Stunt Tainted Jason Todd's Character

It’s no secret that sometimes, in an attempt to garner more fans/customers/attention, companies will lay out big stunts or features that are designed to impress the masses. Most of the time, these events go the way of anything viral on the Internet or social media: they bring in people and press for a few days and then disappear from existence only for those companies to plan something else in the years following that will make an even bigger impact. But every now and then, an idea can be taken to the extreme and find a way to derail itself. When that happens, companies are left scrambling to pick up the pieces and employees are scrutinized until a supposed perpetrator is found. They make a public apology or just do their best to sweep the situation under the rug, praying that their slip-up won’t hurt sales. Yet, despite all their efforts, the stigma of that mistake never fully goes away. Unlike with a successful gimmick, people can’t forget the time that a certain company dropped the ball and produced either offensive or hilarious results (depending on your point of view).

The comic book industry is certainly no stranger to this phenomenon. In fact, many of the choices that writers and editors make on behalf of characters, such as costume designs or who will wear the mask, are often controversial enough within their own circle of readers. It takes a lot to do more than simply ruffle the feathers of many comic book fans, although the rise of social media has enabled audiences and writers to interact on a far more personal and direct level than they ever were before. But just like any other company, comic book big shots like DC and Marvel are still, at the end of the day, a business, and their first and foremost interest is making money.
And lots of it.
The history of comics is similar to most other forms of media in that it experienced a rise and fall regularly over the course of the 20th century. After the Golden and Silver Ages of comics in the 40’s-60’s, readership began to peter out, and sales of comics dropped considerably from what they had once been. The 1970's and 80’s brought about a new age for comics for both DC and Marvel. For DC, it was a dark one, an age where many of their superheroes and other characters were receiving re-writes and retcons in the wake of their Crisis on Infinite Earths event that reset their universe in an attempt to consolidate the tangled mess that had become their cannon. Several DC characters had already undergone grittier transformations prior to the event, such as Green Arrow’s Speedy who, in the 70’s, was baptized into the new era by way of a heroin addiction.

Batman #408
Along with Batman’s comic generally dropping itself into the Angst Bucket, the character of Robin was given a re-vamp. After Dick Grayson had left Batman’s side to lead the Teen Titans and become Nightwing (rocking that hideous-as-hell collar), a new Robin arrived on the scene named Jason Todd. His origin story made him a nice little Grayson Clone as a way to let fans adjust to the loss of such a legendary character that many readers had grown up with. The only real difference between him and Dick was that Jason, at the start of his tenure, had curly red hair that was promptly dyed as a way to make himself look more like his previous mantle-holder. After Crisis, the writers at DC found an opportunity to make Jason his own character. They scrapped his copy-cat backstory and replaced it with the tale of a young boy that had been born and bred on the streets of Gotham. His new character spoke with slang speech, had a bit of an attitude, was arrogant, and had more guts than he probably should have had at the tender age of twelve. Hell, he came into contact with the Caped Crusader because he was caught stealing the tires off of the Batmobile.

And as infamy would have it, the most well-known aspect of Jason’s character is that he died. And he didn’t just die--he was beaten within an inch of his life with a crowbar and then blown up with a bomb. Batman arrived in time to find his body and hear the dying words of his mother lament the fact that he was a much better child than she deserved. For well over a decade, Jason remained dead. His time as Robin was memorialized with his costume hanging in a glass case in the Batcave, forever a reminder to Bruce of his greatest failure. Jason was then marred in future comics as the “Bad Robin,” the reckless and impulsive failure who died because he didn’t listen to Bruce.

Note: This was, in fact, approved by the Comics Code Authority
I will admit that Jason’s story was the source of my interest in comic books. After watching his 2010 film and reading into what happened (and I posted a review of that here), I felt I needed to explore what this world of comics was and how Jason fit into it. So maybe I’m biased, or maybe I’m still relatively ignorant. But what I will say is that I came into this scenario with fresh eyes, as someone who had never had an attachment to the previous Robin or even Batman to a large extent. Given the evidence presented in both the movie and the comic that featured his demise, I didn’t see this Robin as anything other than a fascinating, tragic figure.

The infamy surrounding what happened and his later blatantly inconsistent interpretations are incredibly obvious to someone like me, who was neither alive during the time in which he was killed or knew anything about him going in.

So what about those gimmicks I mentioned earlier? Well the entire situation behind why, exactly, Jason was murdered is layered in gimmicks and company nonsense. Along with darker storylines, characters, and settings, the 80’s brought about early experimentation in technology (I imagine that at the time Bruce having a computer in the Batcave was more-or-less impressive to many readers). DC, like everyone else, was interested in finding new ways to use this technology for the sake of gaining attention and interest. One of the new features that they had been toying with was the idea of a phone poll which Dennis O’Neil, the then-editor for the Batman comics, described as “heeding the opinions fans express[ed] in letters and conversations at conventions and comic shops.” It was, essentially, early social media. The gimmick worked by having Jim Starlin, the writer for Batman at the time, set up a storyline, titled A Death in the Family, in which it was left ambiguous whether or not Robin was dead or alive. They then placed an ad at the end of the comic inviting readers to call a hotline number (after being charged a paltry 50 cents) and cast their vote for whether or not they wanted him to die. After the 36 hours allotted to vote, the numbers were tallied: of 10,614 calls, 5,271 wanted him alive and 5,343 wanted him dead by a margin of 72 votes.

As Denny said, “Hail and farewell, Jason Todd.

The reaction to the stunt was unexpected. In the Postscript to the graphic novel, O’Neil writes:
“One of the pro-Jason votes was mine[...] any essential alteration to a lengthy series would necessitate much redefinition, much editorial scrambling. I was prepared for long hours at my desk if Jason died.

I was emphatically not prepared for the reaction. As soon as the news of Jason’s expiration got out, our publicity whiz, Peggy May, began getting calls from journalists. Dozens of them. For three long working days and part of a fourth, until Peggy declared a moratorium, I talked.”
Not that anyone could blame poor Peggy.
People across the country were outraged. The big question was why they would choose to kill off a child, especially one that was holding the title of one of the most iconic characters in pop culture history.

While O’Neil believed that many readers only voted to let him live because they were under the impression that the Robin they were going to kill off was Dick Grayson, I find that assumption to be unlikely. Dick had been around since 1940 and had become an iconic figure in the DC Universe. He was as legendary and as popular as his mentor, and went on to be successful even apart from Batman. After the reboot, it was still made clear that Dick was a member of the Teen Titans and had taken on the mantle of Nightwing. Very little of his history had been changed. Long-time comic readers would have known that. They would have been, at the very least, familiar with the notion that Dick was Nightwing and Jason was the new Robin.

As for the media backlash, it wouldn’t be all that surprising for the general public to assume that it was the original Robin, since comic politics and retcons weren’t exactly common knowledge. But again, O’Neil implies that much of the anger and vehemence from the media came from the disdain for the stunt itself, rather than because it was Dick Grayson. O'Neil remarks in the Preface to A Lonely Place of Dying:
“…one reporter claimed that the whole event had been rigged—that, in fact, we had decided on Jason’s demise ahead of time and staged an elaborate charade… several colleagues accused us of turning our magazines into a ‘Roman circus.’ Cynical was a word used. And exploitative. Sleazy. Dishonorable.” 
People were upset and offended by the nature of the crowd-sourcing tactic, viewing it as what it was: a gimmick designed to garner attention. A reporter for The Globe and Mail wrote an article mocking the stunt, saying:
"How far will this go? We picture an author drafting a scene in which a private eye is to rush headlong into a gangster’s hideout rather than wait for the police, but the shamus won’t budge. He won’t touch the doorknob. He’ll sit on the front stoop and insist that no self-respecting character would be so dumb as to walk into certain danger all by himself, and that if the author wants to press the point he should hold a poll of the readers and see whose side they’re on.” 
O'Neil later went on to emphasize the fact that they didn't kill a human being, child or not: “First of all, let me speak to the shock: We didn’t kill a real kid. This is paper and ink.” There’s no mention of it being Dick; just that is was a child, a child that was brutally murdered at the hands of a psychopath for no other reason than because he knew it would hurt Batman.

Reader reaction to Jason’s time as Robin has also been pegged as virulent hatred. Many comic fans and employees of DC insisted that Jason was seen as a whiny, annoying usurper of the Robin mantle up until his death and that many people wanted him out of the picture. In the special feature short Robin’s Requiem: The Tale of Jason Todd, found on the Blu Ray copy of Under the Red Hood, Judd Winnick (who later went on to write Jason’s resurrection story) remarked, “Let them put their money where their mouth is: if they really don’t like him this much, we’ll leave it up to them if they want to kill him off.” The assumption was that readers had it out for this young kid born and bred in Crime Alley, yet Denny O’Neil’s commentary in the Postscript contradicts that idea:
“This Robin, Jason...well, we didn’t know how people felt about him. Some seemed to like him, some didn’t. Others were suggesting that The Batman commemorate his fiftieth birthday in 1989 by reverting to what he had been when he first appeared, a relentless loner. So we had a character whose popularity was, at best, uncertain, and we had a telephone experiment we wanted to try.” (emphasis me).
Uncertain. Not, “hordes of screaming, angry fans wanted to see this kid bathed in blood and left for the buzzards.” Sure, there will always be a group of people who dislike a specific character for various reasons, and I personally believe a lot of the hatred that did surface towards Jason was rooted in the feeling that Jason had taken the role of Robin away from Dick who had been a fan favorite for several decades and not so much that he was “annoying” or “bratty” or “a little snot.” Winnick even admits that the notion of making the character unlikeable came after they decided to kill him. A decision like that is borne out of a desire to justify an action taken, and that is why I believe much of Jason’s legacy has been tainted by anger, hatred, and victim-blaming. It isn’t out of ignorance on the part of the writers; it’s out of a desire to make Jason Todd look like he deserved death in order to shift the blame from the writers and DC.

The irony of their argument against Jason is that there are plenty of examples of people who liked Jason or who, at the very least, thought he had potential as a character.  One reader even wrote to say that he insisted on dialing the Kill number because he wanted to see if they would actually do it, not because he didn't like the character.

After the media explosion, DC was forced to backpedal faster than a circus performer on a unicycle. Reading some of the commentary is hilarious because it’s incredibly obvious that everyone involved--O’Neil, Starlin, and other people in charge of what has been dubbed The Stunt--tried desperately to place the blame for Jason’s death on anyone but themselves. Unfortunately, that included the character himself (despite the fact that O’Neil, again, contradicts himself by saying that he was just “paper and ink” and then calling comics the “post-industrial equivalent of folk tales” that “must evolve...or become irrelevant to the real world they mirror.” Way to go, Denny) and the fans of the comic. The Postscript even opens with O’Neil’s protest that became a mantra in the days (and decades, really) following Jason’s death: We didn’t kill the Boy Wonder. The readers did.” On the back of the graphic novel, three out of seven quotes explicitly state that the readers are the ones at fault for what happened, all of which would have been chosen by the people who put the novel together. The fact that the infamous “guy with the MacIntosh who rigged his computer to vote every few minutes” story continues to surface and is cited by many of the creative staff as the real reason Robin died again speaks to the company’s desire to hot-potato the blame to someone--anyone--else. Never mind the fact that they were the ones who set up the hotline and Jim Starlin even openly admitted to hating the character of Robin (on more than one occasion it’s been stated that he wanted to give Robin AIDS).

The whole situation just makes me picture a handful of little kids being caught in the act of painting a wall by their mother and when asked who did it, they all pointed at the paintbrush.

In the decades that followed, Jason continued to be beaten with the “bad Robin” stick, with various characters calling him reckless or impulsive or brash or disobedient or anything that could possibly justify his death. It was almost as if there was an unspoken policy that Jason be depicted--whether in flashback or through conversation--as deserving of his death as another means to establish a reason for his demise. He was re-written as a punk, someone who was asking to be killed because he dared to act like an actual child and have emotional problems after the death of his parents. There's even a scene in Gotham Knights #43 (which I do, all things considered, think is a genuine and decent story) where Jason is seen smoking and Babs (Batgirl at the time who was asked by Bruce to get an emotional reading from him after the incident with a certain diplomat and a certain balcony) calls him out on it. Even Batman, who blames himself for what happened pretty regularly in cannon, is still always being told by someone that “he did his best” and “there was nothing else he could have done” to prevent Jason’s demise by other characters. It seems DC isn’t very fond of making one of their heroes out to be a human being that makes mistakes, let alone one that resulted in the brutal murder of a twelve year-old.

Gotham Knights #44
It would be an amusing look at how marketing affects story lines and characters if it didn’t result in the ugly reality of an emotionally traumatized child being blamed for his own death that came out of his desire to protect his rotten mother who sold him out to the Joker and put him in the situation in the first place.

Why would they do all this? As I mentioned above, DC comics is still a company that is out to make a profit on their books and characters. Having their writers or--God forbid--their most popular characters made out to be anything other than positive role models would be a death wish. The back-pedaling they did after The Stunt and the subsequent retconning of Jason’s character speaks to that. “If his murder was justified--if he was just a punk that couldn't listen and had an attitude and SMOKED--then the unholy mess that came from it was really just people overreacting. It wasn’t OUR fault. We just have really vindictive readers. Now go by our new issue of Batman. There’s a new Robin and he’s NOTHING like Jason--he’s rich and awkward and not socially adept, just like many of our readers!”

And perhaps the greatest irony is that their biggest blunder, the character who died because some writers and execs needed cannon fodder for their gimmick, came back to life in the early 2000’s and experienced unprecedented popularity, according to Judd Winnick:
“When we re-introduced Jason Todd as the Red Hood, I was surprised at how many of the readers liked him and liked him in a way of liking him as a hero. Basically, the best way to put it, was they thought he was cool. And that was not really my intention.”
I wouldn't exactly describe this as "cool;" more like disturbing. But okay.
Batman Annual #25
So where does that leave Jason? Well I think the blatant reality of marketing getting the better of a character has pulled out from the shadows a desire of many people to defend Jason. His anti-hero status and the fact that audiences were so willing to accept him (generally speaking) says that the culture at large is changing their perspective on troubled characters. More people are jumping on board the Sympathy Bandwagon or, at the very least, are willing to set aside the twenty-something years of convoluted interpretations to welcome Jason Todd into the realm of “cool anti-hero.” And even now, there are still many readers who are interested in seeing Jason overcome his anger and vengeance and mend his broken relationship with not only Batman and the Batfamily, but DC fans as well.

Hail and farewell Jason Todd? I think not.

Quotes from Robin's Requiem: The Tale of Jason Todd were taken from here.

Other graphic novels/comics include:

A Death in the Family (1988) by Jim Starlin
A Lonely Place of Dying (1989) by Marv Wolfman and George Perez
Gotham Knights #43 & #44 (2003) by Scott Beatty
Batman Annual #25 (2006) by Judd Winnick
Batman #408 (1987) by Max Allan Collins

19 comments:

  1. Great article and you really hit the nail on the head. Have you thought of doing a follow up? I would love to read your opinions on Jason development post-Winnick (that frankly were a mess) and how he was the most benefitted character for the N52 reboot, he's pretty much Batman right hand now!

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    1. Thank you. (: I have not, actually. That kind of follow-up would require a LOT more research and reading, as I'm not as intimately familiar with his pre-N52 reboot as I am with his character up until his death (partly because 90's comics just look pretty damn terrible and also his horrendous characterization doesn't make me want to invest in the money to read them). It might be something to consider for the future, but for now I'd have to spend more time researching. But yes--as spotty and controversial as Red Hood and the Outlaws is, it's the best thing to happen to Jason since that movie in 2012, which says a lot about how bad his post-resurrection portrayal was.

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    2. Yeah, DC just didn't knew what to do with him. At some point they seriously considered the Nightwing mantle for him but fan outcry put an end to those plans, then they brought back the Red Robin persona for him but it was ultimely given to Tim since he lost the Robin identity to Damian (Bruce's biological son), he then was turned into a villian but the movie and the reboot saved him and now is a full fledged member of the batfamily. There's a pretty vocal complaint about him 'ursurping' Dick's story and role but I disagree.

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    3. I can see why they'd be a bit stuck. I was more upset with how they basically said, "Well, we don't know where he could be shoehorned into the heroes, so let's just make him a villain." Then he tried to kill everyone...it just seemed vastly out of character. Writers seemed to be more interested in painting him as a rage-filled psychotic without scruples, again I think to justify his being dead in the first place. I haven't caught up to the point where he's on good terms with Bruce, but I've heard some things floating around the Internet that leave me a bit concerned. And Nightwing, for all intents and purposes, is dead. I'm actually on DC's side with dropping the Nightwing mantle and giving him another identity (the spy thing is a little cliched, but we'll see where it goes). He's been around so dang long that moving his role around a bit is a good thing, I think. I also feel that the backlash to Dick being "usurped" is just more evidence to the fact that most people don't like Jason because they still see him as a fraud or thief of Dick's position. Which is ridiculous, because comic book characters are constantly being re-written, re-done, replaced, or removed. Jason wasn't the first and he won't be the last.

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    4. Yep, Lobdell got a lot of flak on the comic book community but he did the right thing by move Jason past the "argh, I hate Batman. Gonna hurt him" mindset. Giving him a team was unexpected but something that worked wonders since Jason was always stuck ina sort of limbe where he never interacted with characters outside of Gotham. And what is more, they complemented each other pretty well.

      Jason's reconciliation with Bruce was on RHATO 18 then the book fell in a awful period under Tynion's pen that seemed determinated to return Jason status quo to that pre N52, luckily he left the book and Lobdell came back determinated once again to shake things up (an upcoming story will have Jason hooked on Venom! O_O)

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    5. I think more people were pissed off that he screwed over Starfire's character and gave her one terrible costume re-design. But really, based on the things I've read and the way she's presented and talked about in the comic, I can't hate Lobdell for that big flop; I think he really believed that her character was "feminist," but he missed the whole idea that "feminist" doesn't equate with "slut." Even after reading two volumes, I still can't get a good handle on who exactly her character is. At least Jason now has some nice, smarmy and snarky lines that I find amusing. I still wish Rocofort had stayed on the title. ):

      I'm actually waiting on Vol 3 of RHATO to arrive, so I guess I'll get to see that once the comic gets here. I have so much stuff to catch up on, I haven't even been able to snag the N52 Batman main title volumes. SIGH.

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    6. Lobdell is pretty controversial mainly because he was one of the most influential writers on the 90's and general opinion says that nothing good can come from those 'dinosaurs', I think is monumentally stupid but to each their own.

      I don't know if Kory can be called feminist, but she's a strong and determinated woman that just happens to have a different mindset and some really traumatic experiences on her past that made her taciturn and reserved but she's still a sweet and earnest girl beneath all that. Lobdell's RHATO is a story of redemption and moving past awful experiences into a brighter future.

      RHATO Vol 3 is pretty great (I don't know how many time I've read it) and frankly I suggest you to skip Tynion's tenure on the title, putting aside some really dumb choices, an horrible art and everyone being out of character, it lacks direction and it becomes pointless at the end. Although if you were a BIG fan of pre N52 Jason you could find it interesting, it cribs a lot from RH: Lost Days.

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    7. Well from the looks of it, not too many of the comics in the 90's were very good haha. So I can see why there would be some reservation.

      I'm hoping that comes across more the further I get into the series because even with Vol 2 focusing mainly on her, I didn't get much personality from her. Roy and Jason have it in spades, but Kory is still flat to me. I'm thinking part of my issue is that my main experience with her comes from the Teen Titans TV show from the early 2000's that followed her comic persona much more closely than Lobdell's approach.

      I just might skip it then haha. I only have so much money and wasting it on a bad graphic novel is not an expense I can afford. I would like to pick up Lost Days at some point, even though I know most of what's happened in it.

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    8. Ohhhh, I see now why you feel Kory so weird. Truth is comic book Kory has always been pretty different to her depiction on the animated series. During a good chunk of the 80's her whole characterization was being madly (nearly pathological levels) with Dick and during her last appearances before the reboot she was constantly drawn walking around naked on Animal Man's house or having a "no strings attached" relationship with Captain Comet. I was never a big TT fan, but I think that the cartoon took some traits and exaggerated them for comedy's sake.

      Lobdell's version is closer to her first appearances just more bitter and reserved but yeah AFAIK, preN52 Kory and N52 have little in common with the animated version.

      If you have a chance, you might find Secret Origins 2 (since it told Kory's origin) and RHATO 32 (it started another Kory-centric arc and is another jump point for the series) interesting.

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    9. I don't know, I've seen panels and such from her appearances in Teen Titans comics from the 70's/80's and she seemed to be very much on par with what the show depicted (with a little exaggeration, I'm sure). There have been plenty of people to argue against Lobdell's interpretation, but I suppose at the end of the day I'm just not getting much of *anything* from her. She's just very hard to read. Unlike with Jason's victim-blaming retcon, she just seems to be deviating from the happy-go-lucky person she was to more drawn and serious. Like I said, I'm only a few volumes in, so hopefully that will change. :D

      I will definitely keep those in mind! I'm trying to catch up on RHATO anyway, so I should come across 32 at some point. Thanks~

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  2. Love your essay.

    I always think that the reason why people are more likely to give Jason a chance in today's day and age may because of more awareness of children who are in situations like Jason through no fault of their own, and the understanding you can't blame the child for going through these type of things, as well as anti-bourgeois sentiment. This as well as the desire to see more well rounded and interesting characters is probably what lead to Jason Todd's popularity. Also people are much more aware of the fact that Batman isn't the greatest superhero alive, and in recent years people have really begun to question Batman's inability to kill certain villains like the joker, instead throwing every villain he captures into Arkham which may as well be a revolving door. Also people aren't as forgiving of the Joker as we used to be, people are aware of the fact that Joker is nothing but a craze killer and that there is no rehabilitating him. So when Jason Todd was reintroduced saying the same criticisms that has popped up among readers over the years, it was very hard to disagree with him, and people found Batman's excuses for why he doesn't kill joker very weak.

    However, the problem is that many DC writers and with the corporation itself, is that they tend to ignore these facts in order to portray Batman as the "perfect superhero", even if it means ignoring the obvious. However they ain't fooling anyone anymore, at this point in time the only problem that people really see with is character is his rage against Batman, since it is unhealthy for Jason. Say what you will about Scott Lodbell but the way how he protrayed Jason was the way how many thought that a character like him should be portrayed.

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    1. I totally agree. The stunt that they pulled in the 80's was only possible at that point in time. They wouldn't be able to get away with something like that now, regardless of the type of character. One of the links that I had in the article has a source article written by an academic that discusses the fascination people had with a very specific definition for Robin--and Jason didn't fit it. Tim's creation, as much as I love him and think he did come into his own, was still very much calculated and intentional. He was made to be everything Jason Todd wasn't. And again, while Jason was never the epitome of Dick after Crisis, he wasn't nearly the a-hole that people still try and see him as being. What small portions of his "bad rep" there are only hit their high point in the weeks/months prior to his death, which Starlin did intentionally. They wanted to create a character that may or may not piss people off for the sake of the marketing stunt. He was contrived in--what looks like now, at least--a very sinister way so that people wouldn't like him and the phone poll wouldn't be a waste.

      And to be honest, I'm not even going to say that I have a problem with Batman not killing people. I mean yeah, it's totally more about making sure he still has a Rogues Gallery to work with more than anything else, but in a world that is so saturated with guns and violence and death, it's a fascinating aspect of his character that I still respect. Someone used a comparison between Batman and Jason as the difference b/w a user and an addict. Jason, as a "user", is able to kill once or twice and then stop, but Bruce, as an "addict," knows that if he kills even just once that he won't be able to stop. That dynamic is FASCINATING because it's so tragic in its nature. One of the best things about Under the Red Hood was the fact that they made Jason's side of things look justified in a way; they gave him credibility rather than make him look like a deranged, undead monster.

      I'm on the same side of the fence with Lobdell. As much as I will admit that the story lines and character designs are saturated in testosterone, he DOES do a good job with Jason and Roy (Starfire has yet to really develop a personality for me) in terms of character. I wish he would stop making Jason beat everyone over the head about the fact that he was killed, but he does make his feelings towards Batman COMPLICATED rather than blind hatred. The fact that his most cherished memory was of him falling asleep on Bruce's shoulder while he had the flu and then told that little weird guru guy to keep it makes me SO HAPPY because THAT'S the epitome of his character to me--he loves Bruce, he knows Bruce loves him, he has a home with the Batfamily...but he can't accept it because he feels like he has already gone to far, so he pushes it away. That's someone who has a seriously self-deprecating nature and never believes himself to be good enough, despite trying his hardest to attain what he thinks other people want him to be. So then he basically says "F*ck it, I'm going in the opposite direction so at least the judgement and criticism I give myself is justified." Also, that shows that Jason sees love as conditional, much like Tim and Damian (as another person pointed out in an article that I can't link at the moment).

      Dick is basically the only emotionally healthy one. And even that has it's limits haha.

      I...I think I just rambled. I'm sorry. His character makes me *feel* things.

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    2. Yep, people would have stormed DC if they tried to pull that stunt today with Jason's character. I'll always say that Grant Morrison did a terrible job with Jason's character, though I think that is true because, and he admits it, he views Batman as a "pure hero" and Jason Todd is a walking reminder of Batman's failure as a hero.

      In a way I think its commendable for Batman to not kill, but on the other hand, some of the villians in his rogue gallery such as Joker are complete monsters, and every villain just goes back a life of crime after their short tenure in Arkham. Batman's villains don't rehabilitate and they have no intention to. So in a way it makes Batman's vigilante work at best somewhat pointless, because the fact that at the end of the day as far as the most dangerous villains of Gotham are concerned he isn't all that effective.I personally think that Bruce feels that just there is no Joker without the Batman, there is no Batman without the Joker, and that's really kind of messed up, because there is a level of selfishness for Bruce keeping the Joker alive. It kind of says a lot when the super heroes from another company recognize almost immediately that the Joker can't stay alive, hell even Superman came to the same conclusion. So its not really ALL of the Batman's rogue gallery that's a problem, just Joker. Despite the fact that Jason in Under the Red Hood, made really good points, the story still framed him as being in the wrong, the problem is that times have changed so even though DC framed as being in the wrong, people still realized that Jason had a good point, in other words there is a disconnect between the the DC and the viewers.

      I Lobdell was just starting to explore Starfire's character before he left the comic, the minute he came back he immediately started building her character again. I think that the Jason of now is in a much better place than he was back then, I mean one of the first things that Lobdell did was explore Jason's anger and then have Starfire nip it in the bud. In many ways Starfire and Roy are Jason's calming agent, they show him unconditional love, which I think Jason is just starting to respond to. The best parts of Lobdell's writing is when he shows the three of them just hanging out. Because though Jason loves Bruce, and Bruce loves Jason, Bruce is very much damaged person, possibly more so than Jason, so Jason will never get what he needs from Bruce.

      Dick took a while to become emotionally healthy individual, that's part of why he became Night Wing. Dick was emotionally damaged it wasn't obvious but it was there, in fact that's part of the reason why he and Starfire were put into a relationship, because Starfire was the only character who could have helped him through it (sense the irony yet?), she really did help him through his problems, as well as teach him how to express himself in a healthy manner, and its also the reason why they wouldn't allow her character to move on, because whenever Dick would slip, they needed Starfire or one of the former members of the Teen Titans to bring him back to his center. The new 52 Dick doesn't have that support system anymore, so I'm not sure what will happen to him if he is pushed too far. Speaking personally that's why I always find DC retcon concerning the Teen Titans and then their forcing together Babs and Dick to be a bit of a dumb move on their part, because they also like to brag about how Nightwing is the center of the Marvel universe. Its funny because now some fans are pissed off that Jason is effectively taking over Dick's place, and now its hard to imagine Dick as the center of the DC universe when he barely with other characters, but that's exactly how the editors wanted it...and I'm going off on a tangent.

      I'm sorry I find situation with Dick kind of funny.

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    3. Psh, did you see my reply? Tangents are a-okay with me!

      But that's what makes their relationship INTERESTING. He doesn't have to be a monster in order to make Bruce look good. Bruce already has his merits and the love of the audience. Why turn Jason into a psychopath in order to elevate him? It's just...asdfghjkl I don't even know. I'm not gonna hate on Morrison, since he does phenomenal work outside of that, but really? A "pure hero?" WHAT.

      While I totally agree, there's still a part of me, as a reader, that hopes the Joker isn't killed. I'm sure there's a word for it in literature, but they have a sort of dual existence. As you pointed out, one can't exist without the other. Sure, most of that is tied up in the idea that they can't kill off their most legendary villain, but it does create a unique dichotomy. And if Batman's issue at the end of the day really is that if he kills once, he will kill again, I don't see how that would end up fixing the problem in the long run. It appears that Arkham is the problem more than anything else, since they can't seem to keep anyone in their damn walls hahaha. But then the "not killing" issue seems to be a theme across the board with DC. I don't believe any of the DC heroes are really "allowed" to kill anyone. People lost their marbles when Superman DID kill Zod in Man of Steel, so imagine if they had Bats kill the Joker. I think the world might implode. You'd be surprised how many people, when someone posted on an IMDB forum that Jason had a point, fought back against Jason's perspective. Some of that probably came from Pre-N52 sentiment and what they had of the character at the time (that movie came out a year before the N52), but still. Batman fanboys can be down-right rabid in their defense of the Caped Crusader. Having that greatest failure come back and HAVE A POINT to what he's saying doesn't make Bruce look bad, it just adds complexity to his character and stirs conversation.

      All of the Outlaws are kind of damaged, though haha. I have no idea if Roy's delve into heroine is still cannon, but from the looks of his most cherished memory, he didn't seem to be doing too hot over the last few years. I think for me, Kory didn't start gaining some humanity until Vol 2 with her story arc. But I do believe they have a good dynamic going, because you can see how each one handles their troubled past: Roy is either accepting it or in denial, Kory closes herself off emotionally, and Jason just sort of...explodes a lot. Which, hey, I've written characters with that exact same dynamic, and they learn a lot from each other because they have to experience hurt from another perspective and it opens their eyes up to their own problems.

      Oh yeah, I don't deny that he has some SERIOUSLY bad denial problems, but he at least has the maturity to move past them for the most part now. I always liked Kory and Dick together. I thought it was interesting, even if my main experience is from the animated TV show. They're just two very good, strong characters that worked well together. Babs and Dick is a little predictable to me. Nightwing I think IS the emotional center of the DCU, but I also feel their decision to dump him on his own and give him a completely new identity is a nice choice. It's not something you can do with the main heroes unless you want massive backlash (Hello, Hal Jordan), but giving him that opportunity I think is great.

      People that are bitching about Jason "taking Dick's place" can go away. Dick still communicates with Bruce, their bond is there, he is STILL AND ALWAYS WILL BE the "dark heir." Let Jason have a chance to grow with Bruce a little. Dick had freaking 30+ years to do it. I really think it comes down to both the hangover from his bad retconning and comic book fans' obsession with conservatism. They don't like change, especially from someone like Dick. Even if it's good change.

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    4. Thanks,

      Yeah, but some idiots don't like the idea of Batman not being perfect, its a problem with DC, is that they don't realize that well rounded characters are more interesting. Perhaps they think that Jason being a living reminder of Bruce's failure as a superhero tarnishes his reputation. It think its really just the twisted logic of the Batman fanboys.

      Arkham is a problem, but then again Bruce is a billionaire and he does nothing to help fix the system, this is another criticism about his character. Generally DC superheroes don't kill however Superman has killed some of his villians pre-52 or at least attempted to, so the people who are complaining about Superman killing Zod b/c he never kills are wrong. I think that its weird because DC made it that way, but in hindsight its one of those things that doesn't really make any sense. Its strange as a writer we know why Joker is there, but from a in story perspective we can see how dangerous and self Batman's actions are by keeping the Joker alive, it's almost funny to watch DC scramble to come up with excuses that aren't too meta or too selfish for why Batman hasn't killed the Joker yet. Batman fan boys can't be reasoned with, I'm talking about comic book fans in general, that sentiment I think was there even pre-52.

      Yes, that's actually what makes the title interesting, also Lobdell seems to be improving his writing, or maybe that's just my reaction after Tynion's writing (it was godawful). Anywho the Outlaws are an interesting group.

      Dick was worse than just having denial problems, you'd have to read the actual Teen Titans comic book titles (not based on the tv series) to really understand it but, even the editors at that time agreed that there was no way that any child raised by Bruce Wayne will grow up to be a healthy functioning member of society. Dick really fought hard for his Independence from Bruce, Dick has mostly moved past it now but at times he does regress. He became the center of the DCU because of that fought to gain his own identity, and gained those answers during the Teen Titans run. Kory and Dick were originally going to get married (in fact they are married in an alternate universe), until DC decided that they wanted to push him back with batman and separate the Batman and put them in their own universe. After that they attempted to include a retcon in order to create a relationship between Babs and Dick, because its predictable, however despite how predictable it is, the two characters don't really fit together, this is the reason why we never see the two in an actual relationship, in good times and bad, and the real reason why they break up so often. They failed, and then allowed Dick to interact with the other characters again. I think that Nightwing WAS the emotional center of pre-52 DC verse, however in the post 52 DCU he doesn't have any real history or interaction with characters outside of Gotham, so he no longer the emotional center. I think that their decision to dump him had partly to do with him no longer being DCU's center, which is why people are able to accept the dumping of Nightwing, but its great that they're finally got with the program and are moving on.

      I don't think that they mean with Bruce, but with the DCU on a whole. Dick's past has been erased and with it, the explanation for his closeness with the other reasons, the reason for WHY Dick is the emotional center of the DCU has been retconned out of existence. And sad to say that its something that the editors have been attempting to do for ages, but I don't think that they expect it to have these results (they wanted to have their cake and eat it too), and are now trying to create a new identity for him. However Jason is now interacting with a lot of various characters in the DCU, which is what Dick used to do.

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    5. I can't imagine Jason being alive and present any more tarnishes his reputation than the fact the he died in the first place does. Why is the fact that he came back even an issue for people in that regard? Bruce beat himself up about it for MONTHS in actual time after the initial death. DC almost makes it a point to remind people that Bruce is human, so why would the obsession with making him "perfect" even work? Humanity means imperfection. I'm okay with Bruce making mistakes and doing stupid things. My only beef is when he turns into a heartless asshole, which tends to happen every now and then depending on who's writing him.

      I suppose the nature of Arkham being a mess and Batman's methods being ultimately ineffective comes from the nature of the character and comics themselves. Writers can't just keep creating villain after villain every week; they don't have the paper and ink or the space to do it, I think. Plus readers would be lost amongst the swarm. Having easily identifiable villains and heroes makes them more marketable, I suppose. The Joker is also a perfect foil for Batman, to the extent that any other villain often gets overshadowed by him. Killing him would be killing the characters, and having Arkham be more secure would basically end the stories lol. And yeah, when most of those characters were originally created, they all killed. I believe Batman straight-up shot people until censorship and the general public decided they didn't want that in their little 5-cent stories.

      Oh hell no, any kid that comes into Bruce's family is going to have problems (more so than they did when they arrived, at least) haha. I can totally see Dick having to deal with emotional issues. I'll have to take your word on it, but there have been scans of panels that prove he wasn't always nice and chipper and friendly. He had his moments, like everyone else. But I think one thing him and Jason share is that they DID have the balls to confront Bruce on things that he did. Dick I think did it in a nicer, less direct way, but Jason just tended to throw it all in his face. I read that Dick and Kory did tie the knot at one point (or they were going to until apparently some villain interrupted the wedding and killed the priest), but in typical comic fashion, having any of the heroes marry has become a No-No. No one wants to write a married superhero for whatever reason. The N52's timeline I find bizarre, anyway. Most of the time I just create my own head cannon because I just can't process everything that's happened. Only 5 years with superheroes? C'mon, that just doesn't work. There's too much cannon, re-written or not, that exists to only give them five years. Dick and Jason were each given two years as Robin, I believe, which means that Dick was like freaking 16 or 17 when he was Robin. That's ridiculous. There's a lot of great stuff with the N52, but some of it I just have to shake my head at and ignore haha.

      How could they not expect a backlash in this day and age? Between social media and Comic Cons there's no way they could have thought that screwing around with Dick's background and place in the DCU would blow over well with long-time fans. Hell, people were pissed when they killed off Damian (which was a STUPID thing to do, regardless of Grant Morrison's original intentions) and he hadn't even been around that long. Audiences grow attached. Look at Harley Quinn--a creation for a TV show took one episode to cement herself in the DCU. I think in Jason's case they're still trying to find a place for him. From what it sounds like, his resurrection wasn't even planned and just kind of happened, so they've been scrambling since then to put him some place where people will stop bitching about wanting their quarters back. -____-

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    6. Beats the hell out of me, I don't understand fanboy logic. I personally think that its a good thing that Jason is there as a reminder that Batman is human, and that's a good thing, since its something that the average viewers complains about with the old Golden Age comics, a perfect Batman is one who is hard to identify with.

      Yeah its a very weird contradiction in the mere existence of Batman, and requires either some real heavy suspension of disbelief or zero knowledge on such matters. Bruce could do more as Bruce Wayne than he ever could as Batman, in fact I remember a few skits by Cracked TV where they pointed this out, and in a rather cruel way too. While Joker is a great foil for Batman he's also a psycho killer whom Bruce has had in his mercy multiple times only to spare him, while before no one would question this, times have changed.

      Actually Dick used to get into Bruce face just like Jason did, Bruce used to piss him off. He calmed down from then bu Dick had some serious issues with Bruce, which is part of the reason why he abandoned his Robin persona. So Jason wasn't any more disrespectful to Bruce any more than Dick was, in fact Jason and Dick used to get together just to complain about Bruce. This is why even though I like Tim, Tim is a bit of Marty Stu compared to Jason, but at the time people were back in their Batman must never be questioned or wrong phase, which I think may have ironically been started by the Batman TAS's popularity. Yes Dick and Kory were technically husband and wife but DC loves to ignore unless they want to make an AU comics. Hell in one of the Titans issues they outright stated that (re)marry in the future. 52's timeline is messed up, I've given up trying to understand it.

      Because its DC, they seem to be the last to get with the program, why did they expect no backlash for killing Liam Harper? because they're DC. They tend to make guess on the audience's reaction a lot only to be proven wrong.

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    7. Haha I suppose that must be it, 'cause I totally agree about Jason being alive. And if you ever get the opportunity to read some of the Golden Age comics (40's and 50's), they're an awful lot of fun. Goofy, ridiculous, and quite dated, but they're great to pass the time. You don't identify with Batman, you just experience Batman haha.

      Oh, I love Cracked. I should probably look that video up. But yeah, for me I'm able to accept it a little bit more because I tend to think more generally and abstractly when I read comics, so details like that don't always bother me. I do wish they would quit teasing the idea of Batman killing Joker, because I feel like that's become more of a thing to do. They did it with Death of the Family (which had a controversial ending in and of itself) and it's kind of silly to me for the writers to try that angle. We KNOW he won't kill him, so why dangle that in front of us?

      LOL no kidding! I've seen some panels where he did, but it always looked like Bruce REALLY had to push him in order to get to that point. Since Jason was more of an emotionally driven character, it didn't take much for him to be irritated. But it would be hilarious to read about Dick and Jason complaining about Bruce. I thought the idea of Jason challenging Bruce's morality and ethics was a good thing, but I suppose that's only clear in retrospect. People of the 80's were quite offended at the notion that some poor, angry kid was questing the Big Man's CLEARLY wiser ways. Poor Tim was as much of a contrivance as Jason eventually became. Maybe that's why they tried reinventing him a little in the N52. Too bad he turned into someone rather flat. :/ One of these days I'm going to write a review of that TV show. Maybe piss a few people off bc while I DO like it and think it's a great portrayal of Batman and Bruce Wayne, I also happen to think it's overrated.

      I think most people can process the "everything was condensed into five years" thing, but the bigger question isn't so much "When did all this happen?" so much as it is "WTF is still considered cannon?"

      But it's so...GAH. In this day and age there is no excuse for them to not have a clue what their audience thinks of things. It was justified to some extent in the 80's and 90's because there was no widely-used Internet. But now? I'm more inclined to think they just don't give a shit and will do whatever because they can either retcon it later or get enough people to like it to justify its existence.

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    8. I have, they are fun comics, but I don't think that they would sell very well today. But your right the heroes especially DC heroes during that time, were experienced not identified with.

      I think that's what caused the problem to begin with, The Batman franchise constantly teasing Batman killing Joker until it broke that suspension of disbelief, and people began asking why Batman doesn't just kill Joker. Also they kept on trying to push the envelope with Joker, which didn't help matters.

      Well Bruce was just being Bruce, however Dick just grew up and realized that he didn't agree with Batman's way of handling things. Oh how times have changed, the media beforehand used to see teenage rebellion as deviant behavior, so of course they don't want an "authority figure" (even though he's really just a vigilante) like Batman be questioned, now however, we know its a part of growing up, children start to seek their own identity and independence some earlier than others and also the whole traditional American dream with the white picket fence was quickly going out of style, and people became more cynical. Batman TAS is overrated, there were other awesome shows during that time the Batman TAS wasn't the best of its kind.

      Yep, especially when it comes to the Batman characters, since Bruce raised the first three Robins from when they were little kids, then you have to also take into account every character's history some of which give an hint that it lasted longer than 5 years and you've got yourself a problem.

      I don't know sometimes I think that DC is just stuck in its own little bubble, where they don't pay attention to either the fans or the necessities of their various titles. And it doesn't help that they don't have a guidelines to how a character should be written, or rather they do, but its a morality guidelines, which leaves everything else about the character up to the writer, and while that may not be so bad per say, when some of the writers have under their belt have their own views of the characters, that's when you start to have problems, because they don't know when to put their foot down, and then they end up having to re-imagine the character again, and once again mess around with continuity. Barbara Gordan is perhaps the biggest example of this, she was a character who was frankly better as Oracle, and if DC had listened to the fans she would have as Oracle in the 52, fans didn't really want her to go back to being batgirl, but I think it was more of a credit to Gail Simon's writing rather than the character herself, why they got away with it, became that could have gone south very easily.

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